WHATCHU TALKIN BOUT WILLIS?

I grew up when Diff'rent Strokes was a popular television show. That's no big deal unless your last name is Willis. To this day I still hear those famous words popularized by Arnold: "Whatchu talkin bout Willis?" Usually they are uttered by someone looking at me as though I may have never heard it before. Yeah, right! Well this blog is what I (Willis) am talkin bout...my thoughts, observations & opinions. Enjoy...



Thursday, September 18, 2008

No God, huh?

Sometimes I get irritated with people who don't believe in God. Just being honest here. Many throw out these time honored yet bogus and reflexive arguments like... "How do know the Bible wasn't written by some man somewhere?" or "If there is a god why is all this bad stuff happening?" or "The Bible has too many contradictions". or "How do prove God?"... I could continue with the list, but I think you get the gist. (A little rap moment for my hip hop fans). It should be noted most people with such arguments have no genuine interest in an answer. It's just an effective way of stifling believers.

Let's consider the alternative of unbelief or atheism for a moment. First let me concede that we all operate with faith. As uncomfortable as that might be for some to acknowledge it is nonetheless true. NONE OF US was there at the beginning whatever your view is.

Now, let me get this straight... there was nothing...okay, actually there was something - some stuff - from somewhere (from where we don't know)... and then BOOM there's an explosion followed by billions of years & billions of mutations...and here you are reading my blog. AND YOU THINK CHRISTIANS ARE NUTS? Your god is the holy trinity of Time, Matter & Chance: a whole bunch ot time (How much? Apparently not important) + some matter(where it came from is apparently immaterial) + a unfathomable amount of random chance (The evidence? Let's not trouble ourselves witht that!) = US? You believe in the eternality of matter/stuff. And in your ignorance & arrogance (a deadly combo by the way) you think I'm the only one with faith. Yes I do have faith. But, frankly, I prefer tp place my faith in the real trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit. And I believe in the eternality of God.

Ultimately, where does the un-God view necessarily lead? Nihilism that's where. Seriously, if all that exists comes from this "natural" explanation then what really has meaning. If I thought this way, honestly I'd be tempted to jump off the James River Bridge. Why? Why not? Like the old song says, "Nothin from nothin leaves nothin - you gotta have somethin..." But you have NOTHING in the end (Oh, except your everlasting stuff). Again, if there is no God why care about anything? Additionally, since there is no right or wrong (who can say since it doesn't matter anyway?) every thing is just an opinion and the opinion really means nothing. All views are equal - nazism, fascism, conservatism, liberalism, libertarianism, sexism, racism, humanism, et al. - equally meaningless. You can deny this by immersing yourself in a social cause or poliltics alledgedly trying to better the future, but why? Your definition of the past robs your future of any potential significance. Sure, you can embrace some sort of cultivated humanistic reasoning like "respecting the rights of individuals", but why? You might even see your roll as passing on your DNA and the survival of your progeny, but again, WHY?

Yeah, I'm one of those Bible believing neanderthals your science professor warned you about.

34 comments:

Melissa said...

But you are such a loveable Bible believing neanderthal :)

I join you in that irritation! I mean seriously, how can you look at all the wonders God created and think it all came from an explosion and mutations! It just doesn't make sense to me!

William Mckinley Dyer said...

No Atheist can ever look at Hitler and say he was wrong he was just practicing Natural Selection. They must concur that he above all practiced what they believe, "Survival of the Fittest" He has to be there hero.
They have blind faith but i have a faith as Heb 11 says that is the assurance of what we haven't seen on the FACTS of what we can see.

Larry said...

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute Dave. Somehow I feel that post was personally aimed at me for what I wrote on another post--and that's ok, Im flattered that I personally sparked a post. Let me answer honestly. You said people like me really dont want an answer---actually yes I do, and you failed to provide the answer in your post. Let me just make this clear---I have NO problem whatsoever when people have FAITH in things, but what lights a fire under my rear is when people say they KNOW God exists. Like you said, nobody was there at the beginning----but then people walk around and say they KNOW he's there. You DONT know, and when you say you know, you are lying to yourself. In my agnosticism, Im not copping out--Im being honest with myself. God could be there, and he also couldnt be---I have no clue, and not only do I not have a clue, I also believe there's no way of knowing. How can you preach in front of people every week when you dont really KNOW those things happened? Remember, the key word is "KNOW" not 'highly suspect' or 'have faith' or 'trust' but 'KNOW'. How do you know these men of the Bible didnt just write stuff down and pass it along to us? There were also other books supposedly written too, why weren't they canonized? What, God didnt like those books as much? From my understanding it was MAN, not GOD who ultimately decided what books made it into the Bible.

Another thing: Are you saying that people cant be good to each other and have morals outside of a belief in God? To me, that is the ultimate arrogance, to say that only YOU people (Christians) can acknowlegde right and wrong. Wow, I knew that religious people had a big chip on their shoulder, but I didnt realize it was as big as it obviously is!

I'll comment more on this later----I have to go for now.

David H. Willis said...

Larry,

This post isn't directed to you exclusively but some of your comments surely sparked my thinking. That's how my mind works. You asked questions, but you haven't answered mine. You are very passionate about a lot of things that some people find whacky. That's okay by me because most people think what I believe is whacky too. I have let you post freely here and probably introduced a few people to your views. But, if there is no God and this is a just big accident why bother worrying about government control or a police state or neocons or the globalist elites? Again, Why?

You said "You said people like me really dont want an answer---actually yes I do, and you failed to provide the answer in your post."

First my post wasn't intended to answer any questions. It was mainly asking questions. What I actaully wrote is "It should be noted most people with such arguments have no genuine interest in an answer. It's just an effective way of stifling believers." I stand by that.

Is your inquiry sincere? I would love to see you return to Christ. MAybe dust off that Bible an take a look at Romans 1.

You wrote "Another thing: Are you saying that people cant be good to each other and have morals outside of a belief in God? To me, that is the ultimate arrogance, to say that only YOU people (Christians) can acknowlegde right and wrong. Wow, I knew that religious people had a big chip on their shoulder, but I didnt realize it was as big as it obviously is!"

Well did I say that? My point is that without God we are truly just animals and ultimately no one can define what is really moral or immoral. I stand by that too.

Larry said...

You know why beliefs appear 'whacky' to people? Because they are sheep whose minds have been conditioned by the media and by society to believe certain things are normal---for example: Income taxes. We all think that's just the normal way of life and we work and pay taxes and it's normal...la de da...and no one questions it...probably mainly because the Bible mentions taxes, so therefore, the Income tax MUST be true! Even the smallest amount of research will show the average person that although our 16th amendment mentions the incoome tax, it does NOT say that the 16th amendment was ratified by the required 3/4 of the (then) 48 states. In 1913, it would have taken 36 of our 48 states to ratify the amendment. Want to take a wild guess how many actually DID ratify it? TWO (as in: the number between 1 and 3) Therefore, they unconstitutionally collect our taxes and they have been doing so for the past 95 years. They have won---twice. Once when they LIED and imposed the tax law and said it was constitutional, and the second time when they succeeded in making people like me look nutty to the rest of the country for simply calling them out on their big, fat fraud. People like Wesley Snipes and Willie Nelson are heroes to me. Al Capone is another story. Although he evaded taxes, I dont think he evaded taxes for the aforementioned reason. He evaded them because he was a thug. Just wanted to clear up the 'whacky' reference.

Let me reply to your comment, "But, if there is no God and this is a just big accident why bother worrying about government control or a police state or neocons or the globalist elites? Again, Why?" First I never said there was no God. Agnostics believe there's no way to know or prove there is one---and face it, you can't, so why live your life fooling yourself? Having faith there is one is another thing. I dont have a problem with people having faith, but when they try to incorporate their mere "beliefs" into policies and even into the Constitution (like Huckabee wanted to) I am 100% against that. If I woke up tomorrow and proclaimed to the world that I believe that the Bible is really an allegory to what I saw a bunch of frogs do and I wanted that incorporated into laws, would people think Im nuts? Yep--and they'd have every reason to.

I'm not sure I follow you on why I shouldnt care (or why it's pointless to) about the state of our country/government if I believe that God may not be there. If I believed in no God, I should be MORE worried about it, because then I would have to accept that there really is NO help and that we humans are REALLY on our own. Are you saying that just because there may not be a God then we should let government control us and we should not stand up for it because it doesnt matter anyway since the Bible says this life is really meaningless and we're only here a shirt time? Please tell me that is NOT what you were saying, because if you were, I find that to be one of the arrogant and utterly ridiculous things I have ever heard someone say.

I bet the millions that Hitler exterminated sure wish someone would have cared more about government control. Even with God 'supposedly' around, they were helpless because Hitler was helped by many people and institutions, including America (General Motors, IBM) and by wealthy elitists (bank of England, Rothschilds)

Where was God when Hitler was put into power and kept in power by the world's elite? God didnt help start this country-----good men did. As I pointed out in another post on your blog, the Founding fathers were NOT Christians--most of them were Deists and Unitarians who didnt even believe in the most basic Biblical teachings like Christ's diety, the resurrection, communion, the virgin birth or miracles and yet we began a Revolution with only 5% of the country's population (then) and said "NO" to a tyrant (King George) and claimed our independence. So, ask yourself Dave----what did THEY do it for? God or the respect, dignity and freedom for all men?

Larry said...

In my very first line of my last post I meant "Know why MY beliefs appear whacky?"---sorry

William Mckinley Dyer said...

Hey larry i appreciate your search for truth. I hate to interrupt what u and dave got going on here but i just wanna say one thing that might spark your interest. i think you have a mis-understanding on what Biblical Faith is. Biblical Faith is believing what we haven't seen or experienced by the Evidence of what is seen or experienced. For example do you believe the founding fathers of America were real? Have u ever met them in person, NOPE. But y do u believe, b/c of the evidence (Documents, historical facts, the fact that America is here and was started by someone). Do u see what im getting at. My belief in God is as much grounded in facts as your belief in George Washington. Neither one of us has seen God or George but we still believe b/c of the Evidence. Now i think you can respect that sort of logic. I came from a semi-agnostic background myself larry so i know where you are coming from. So if you want to sit down and discuss the evidences then im sure Dave would be more than willing or you can always call me too.

Larry said...

Hey William, youre not interfering with a thing. I welcome intellectual discussion. Let me address what you said by stating right off the bat that there are many types of evidence. Direct evidence and circumstantial are two of the most well known types.

When proving the existence of God, you can rule out direct evidence since you didnt personally witness God forming the heavens. You cant use Jesus as an example of the evidence that God exists because 1) As with God, Jesus is not around today walking among us, nor is anyone still alive who say they saw him, and you cant really use the fact that we have documents such as the original writings of scripture to prove the existence of God because a document saying that God exists doesnt prove that existence----that's circular reasoning---like when people say "I believe the Bible is the word of God", and someone asks "why?"---and they answer "because the Bible says it is". That's like FOX News calling itself "Fair and Balanced"---I guess they are because they said they are-----how ridiculous!

and 2) Because believing in Jesus does not necessarily prove the existence of God. Many believed he was just a good man and great teacher, but NOT God---most of our founding fathers among them.

You cannot PROVE God exists. Im sorry if that offends you but that is just the true 100% FACT. God's existence CANNOT be proven. Even the Bible concurs with that because God says he requires faith from his followers. Why have faith in something you KNOW to be true? There's no point. Therefore, you can never really KNOW God is there---if you did, your faith is meaningless.

Are you saying the level of difficulty in proving the existence of God is on the same level as the difficulty in proving the founding fathers existed? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard! Our entire political structure is based on what the founders did in the late 18th century. It's historical FACT, it's documented. We have ACTUAL documents they've WRITTEN---the ORIGINALS! We have their freaking signatures! How many documents did God sign? (By the way, when I capitalize, Im emphasizing, not yelling)

How you can say "Neither one of us has seen God or George but we still believe b/c of the Evidence." Neither one of US has seen Washington, but alot of people DID see him, and those who did documented it, and those who saw THEM documented it, and so on. NO ONE has ever seen God---NO ONE. Like I said you cant count Jesus as "seeing God" because that is not documented fact on the same plain as the founding documents. We have ORIGINAL writings of our founders. We have the ORIGINAL Federalist papers by Hamilton, Madison and John Jay. How many ORIGINAL writings do we have of the Bible? Do I hear a ZERO?

I understand what Biblical faith is---it's believing in the unseen, and that's my problem: Why should we have "faith" in something that we have NO idea is true or not? I dont know if you have any kids, but I know when my child was born, I didnt disappear and tell my wife "when (my child) asks about me, tell her to just have faith in me and I'll be with her". No, I chose to be a father to my child and BE there-----not run out on her and take a 10,000 year vacation like God has on us!(If he's there) Why don't you just ADMIT you dont know God is there and be honest with yourself? You're just a human being like I am----how do you have any more mental capacity than I do to KNOW he's there? You dont, so stop lying to yourself and man up. I know Christians always SAY they dont think they're better than everyone else but I know they secretly believe they are. Deny it all you want, I know when you lay down at night, you say "I'm going to heaven and they arent...thank you God...thank you for choosing ME"

Know what I say when I lay down at night? "If you're there God, I wish youd tell us so I can stop wondering....oh, and if you're there, stop letting the evil (that you claim you can defeat) win over and over again. Oh, I know you say you're gonna come back and defeat evil "one of these days", but Im really sick and tired of babies being murdered, politicians lying to us and staging terrorist attacks and blaming them on other countries so we can attack them with the full support of our citizens, children getting kidnapped and molested or killed---so if you're there it would be just peachy if you could make a guest appearance to take care of ...you know, all the death and destruction happening here NOW----peace out"

Larry said...

Hey William, just curious....do you like George W Bush? Yes or no. Do you support him? Do you think he's a Christian?

David H. Willis said...

Larry,
Agnostic? You're a practical atheist - you live like there is no God. You seem to act tolerant of "religious people" but slam them at the same time. That's fine with me. Jesus said to expect such things.

If there is a God, would you consider it reasonable or possible that he might communicate with his creation in some way or reveal himself to us?

Might there be evidence of his existence (see creation - someone either created it or it's an accident). I'd like to know how you think we all got here?

Might he have the right as Creator to establish rules & penalties, etc.?

Do you believe in the Constitution? On what basis are our rights derived?

On what basis do you condemn Hitler? Who makes the rules? The majority? An enlightened minority? You? Me? God?

I believe God wahts us to govern ourselves. He sdays so.

Darwinism would point to a survival of the fittest so don't despair if the neocons win. Hey pitbulls kill poodles. Cats kill mice. It's all just a result of the struggle. They're neither wrong nor right. They're just stronger. Natural selection at work.

BTW, the Lord's next "guest appearance" will be to judge the living and the dead.

tony said...

"Christians always SAY they dont think they're better than everyone else but I know they secretly believe they are." - Larry Simons

Amazing. We can't KNOW there's a God, but you can KNOW what ALL Christians think. Yet you accuse Christians as arrogant? To use your line of reasoning, I guess we are because you say we are ... how ridiculous.

I can't PROVE God, but I KNOW this; I am a sinner (who doesn't blame his own evil, or everyone else's, on God). I ask God for mercy. I pray for grace. That is truth and reality for me regardless of your ability to "know" otherwise.

Larry said...

Tony, I KNOW many Christians think they're better than others because from 1986- roughly 2000 I spent quite a bit of time with them--and by the way, I never said ALL Christians think that----never used the word "ALL".

Dave---I dont know how we all got here---this is what my entire point is. I wasnt there when this rock called Earth began---that's what agnoticism is, admitting when you dont KNOW. You obviously read nothing I write if you have to ask if I believe in the Constitution-----and my goodness, if I have to say the founders weren't Christians one more time, my head will explode!
Our rights are derived from human reason, human respect and dignity and the desire for freedom from tyranny we were facing at that time. Are you telling me that the aforementioned things CANNOT be attained WITHOUT God? Are you really saying that? Im NOT an atheist. An atheist says conclusively "There IS no God". In other words, they claim they KNOW there's no God, like you claim you DO know there is one. Im in the middle---I dont know, I admit it. Im being honest with myself.

On what basis do I condemn Hitler? Are you referring to the same Hitler that God allowed to exterminate 6 million Jews, or was there another one Im not aware of? Im just one man (and wasnt alive from 1939-1945) so I had no way of stopping Hitler, but God was around then, he could have stopped him, but didnt. He allowed 6 million people including women and children to be obliterated. If God can defeat the devil at ANY time, why does he wait? Why doesnt he just do it? Why is our tolerance level so high for God? Why does he get all the credit for the good things and no blame for the bad?

Isnt it funny how the devil gets all the blame for the bad things, yet the Bible says he has NO control and NO power. Im not defending the devil, if there is one, Im simply saying, "how does evil constantly win?" I know what your answer will be, I simply just dont accept it. If robbers broke into my house and killed my wife and daughter and I was there the whole time holding a gun and just sat and watched it all unravel and didnt fire a bullet at the perpetrators----what would the public say about me? Im sure they'd call me evil, or accuse me of hiring the men to do it. In other words, my name would be forever linked with evil. Id be the new Charles Manson. But yet, when God sits back and allows it, he has a "higher purpose" or "who cares? this life isnt important anyway--we should think of heavenly things, not earthly things". We'd hear every defense and justification for God allowing the evil to happen----and in God's case, he would actually KNOW that he'd stop the evil, because he's all powerful, right? Even if I intervened and shot the bad guys trying to kill my family, I have no idea if I'd survive---I might get shot too-------yet God still doesnt intervene. Why is that? Why was my question never answered on the other thread about why God sends people to hell forever when we as mere humans can even forgive? And, yes, Id really like an answer to that.

William Mckinley Dyer said...

Larry---my argument from George Washington i guess woulda been better put...do u believe Alexander the Great lived? We dont have the original documents but people wrote of him and he is a historical figure etc... Same with Jesus. U say we cant know there is a God just by Jesus. Correct, but by the Resurrection of Jesus we can know there is a God. Simply reason with me please. Lets just say for arguments sake Jesus did raise from the dead beyond a shadow of a doubt. Then would u believe you could prove a God from this? I dont see any other explanation for the resurrection than that there has to be a "higher power" to have performed such a thing.
You havent insulted me but i do wish you wouldnt lump me in with all the other "christians" u have had interaction with. I have tried to treat you with respect.
No i dont think George Bush is a Christian and i did support him at the beginning of his first presidency but with the decisions he has made, not just on the war but many policies, i have retracted my support of him. In fact i cant stand McCain either. I have no hope for this upcoming election

David H. Willis said...

This could go on and on. Here's my original point: I get tired of atheists hammering Christians when their belief system is ridiculous (IMHO). A friend talked with over lunch last week about representing and defending his beliefs. And Larry you have posted several things antagonistic to belivers. Hence my rant. You can beleive this is all an accident. You can believe there is a Creator. Or you can be agnostic. Larry, you have sat thru numerous hours in Bible College and probably even more in church settings. To rehash apologetics here is not my plan. You have rejected Jesus and that is most sad. There is no more horrific mistake than that. There is no sacrifice for sins left.

I have watched several hours of video that you have sent me regarding 9/11, income taxes, skull & bones, the Bildibergers (sp?), the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission, etc. Why? Because I'm about the truth. I could be like most faolks and accept the mainstream story or I could be cynical and agnostic about it all. If you are open I'd be happy to send you books or links to examine. I believe all people have worth becuase they are living souls and because Jesus Christ died for their sins. Our greatest problem isn't economic or political (though we have many), it IS SPIRITUAL. We're sinners. Sin brings the wrath of God. Jesus took that wrath upon himself so that we could escape. Utopia in this life without Christ ends in Hell.

Yes I am a beliver, but I wasn't always. I came to the conclusion that the complexity of creation did not reflect the result of an accident. I reasoned that God may have interacted with his creation. We have conscience and i recognized my own wrongs. Ultimately I embraced the savior, the Lord Jesus. (That's the short version)

Finally... Larry you are always welcome here. I do like Ron Paul (& I think that's were we first reconnected) but I love Jesus a whole lot more.

Larry said...

LIke I've always said Dave, I have no problem with people having faith in their beliefs, but when they describe how things will be (in Heaven) or when they say "you'll be in Hell" if you dont accept Christ----that is a BELIEF and something they cant prove, but yet they describe it in perfect detail as if they just stepped back onto Earth from another dimension where they just witnessed it all. Believe it all you want and accept it all you want, but when you say you "know" it to be true, that's what makes my skin crawl---because you DONT know, that's why it's called FAITH. Faith is not knowing and knowing is not faith----having one eliminates the other. If I witnessed a car accident and reporters asked me details of it, it would be ridiculous for me to say "well, I believe the white car ran the red light and hit the truck..." Wouldnt I KNOW if I saw it? Yes, I would, so using the words "I believe" would be inaccurate, because it's not something I believe, it's something I know, I witnessed it. You guys are never going to answer that other question I asked, are you?

David H. Willis said...

You asked several ans we have too. Many remain unanswered. But what question are you referring to?

Laura said...

Larry,

Your question about hell is a tough one. More and more Christ followers are really researching for themselves the original text and meanings behind the words that were translated as "hell". There are two words to describe them Tartarus/Hades and Gehenna. Look into the meanings behind them when you get a chance. Also, I was looking for one specific site to direct you to, but couldn't find it. This one is close http://www.biblelight.net/hell.htm.
I don't know about the rest of that site, but it was the same type of info I was looking for...the other was just better IMHO. I was brought up believing Hell is a place you burn forever. Many believers are beginning to believe it is more a total annihilation. You are eternally separated from God, and you do die by fire, but it is a final death (instead of the idea that you burn forever.)

Anyways, I am not trying to open up a new can of worms here. I am not saying which I believe to be true. It is just a theory a very respected believer recently shared with me. Regardless, if it's complete annihilation or eternal roasting...it's not going to be good!

Dave, what's your take on this?

Laura said...

One more thought...

You may have already heard of him, but you should check out some of Lee Strobel's (an extremely intelligent Atheist turned Christian) books. Good stuff for people who need/like a lot of information.

Also, I've found that the times it has been hardest to hear God and feel his presence have been the times I've been surrounded by the most "noise". Noise in the forms of everyday life, questions about God's love and mercy (as you've stated), seeking answers that can't be known yet (not even Jesus knows everything...such as the time of the second coming). Noise in the forms of other people's opinions and the noise in the form of the voice in my head (no, I'm not crazy (: ). You know the voice that asks...why me? Why did I have to go through the things I did in my life? How could God love me... I'm not good enough, smart enough, holy enough, pretty enough, faithful enough, etc. Those internal things we tell ourselves. I believe that is one of Satan's greatest attacks against believers. Making them doubt themselves and doubt the God they believe in.

Here's an idea. Go find a quiet place in nature. Hagerstown has some nearby mountains...I love the mountains (then again I grew up in FL so I didn't have them as a part of my everyday life.)

Be still. Be quiet. Look around. Talk to God and then listen. God's creation speaks for itself. I never feel closer to God or more sure of His existence than when I am in nature and it is just me and Him.

Larry said...

Dave, here was my original question:

"It seems as if God is saying, "You have free will----but if you dont chose ME, you're punished FOREVER!" That's love? Even I, a mere mortal, have the capacity to accept the fact that if my own child chose a different path than I had planned for them, I, in my limited finite mind would STILL be able to love them, accept them and STILL not want them punished for eternity. God, 'supposedly',is so much more loving and powerful than we are----but he sends us to Hell FOREVER for not going his way? Pretty selfish to me. In fact, there's two words that describe God in the Bible: Jealous and selfish. How can God be love if he is jealous and selfish? Don't these two words imply a lack of love? I realize the word jealous in the Bible means "intolerant of faithfulness" but if God gave us free will, why can't we choose something else without this fear of burning forever looming over us?"

David H. Willis said...

I first read about annihilationism in any detail from the late Russell Boatman. I thought his presentation was very credible. A friend and respected Bible teacher once said he'd hate to have to debate Boatman on the subject. I reject the form of the teaching from the JW's, but Boatman's thoughts were much more palatable. He took a lot of heat as you can imagine. I've read counter arguments to Boatman from men like Jack Cottrell too. I understand hell to be a place or dimension eternal separation from God. I also see degrees of punishment being involved. It may be that some folks are annihilated early while others endure longer punishment. This view allows for different penalties for those who deliberitely reject God and those who sin but are deceived and/or ignorant about Christ. Honestly, that is appealing. I will have to study more soon. I still lean toward the orthodox view of eternally conscience separation from God. I think we must be careful before we throw off established doctrine. But if the doctrine is wrong it must be dispatched. One thing's for sure in my understanding - it is permanent separation. Are the lost eteranlly "aware" of this? I'll go back and study.

David H. Willis said...

I'l get to the other question later.

Larry said...

If there's so many views about Hell, that must mean only one thing: God wasn't clear on this subject.

I think it's silly to debate about or study something that you cant possibly know the truth about until you die.

Let me clarify something: I wasnt looking for an "answer" as much as a logical/reasonable explanation. With so many views about it from different people---this only solidifies my view that we cannot really know anything about the Bible.

Dave, I have a request if youre willing to watch it. There's a movie at Google video called Zeitgeist. Maybe youve heard of it. I have the DVD. Zeitgeist is actually one movie with 3 sections.

First section is Christianity
2nd is 9/11
3rd is the Federal Reserve (which is the BEST section of the film)

Go to google and watch the first section on Christianity, and let me know your take on it. Even though Im agnostic and you would think I wholeheartedly agree with this movie---I still am undecided on it. I have no idea if Zeitgeist's view is true---but I will say one definitive thing about that section----it is VERY interesting to say the least. It made Mareaca (my wife) cry. Ill try to find the link and post it here. Im NOT saying I believe Zeitgeist---but its interesting.

Larry said...

Try this: I hope it shows up OK

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1543831119879192379&ei=VaLVSP8FibCrAsTe1MkC&q=zeitgeist+religion

Larry said...

OK, it got cut off. Here, try this:

http://video.google.com/
videoplay?docid=
1543831119879192379&ei
=VaLVSP8FibCrAsTe1MkC&q=zeitgeist+religion

Larry said...

It wont post right, just go to google video and type in "Zeitgeist religion" its a 27 minute long clip

Larry said...

Oh I forgot to tell you Dave, theres an incredibly long intro to that movie--skip all that and go to where you see on the screen "Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told"--that is officially the beginning of that section

David H. Willis said...

Maybe when I have some extra time, but for now - no thanks.

David H. Willis said...

Okay here goes...

Larry wrote:

Dave, here was my original question:

"It seems as if God is saying, "You have free will----but if you dont chose ME, you're punished FOREVER!" That's love?

My response:

No Larry, that's Justice. All people have sinned. So everyone will get what they deserve - punishment - except those who escape by God's grace through His son Jesus Christ. Yes God is loving, but He is also holy & just. He will punish sin. In fact this is what makes the gospel message so powerful. Although you have sinned God provides a way of escape. The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God (Hell). This is a BIG problem because you can never finish paying the debt your sin has incurred. Yu cannot atone for your sins.

Jesus took our sins and God's wrath upon himself. He became our proption - an offering that takes away wrath. He took it aqway from us and upon himself. Now for some divine math: An infinite being (Jesus) suffered a finite period of God's wrath is equivalent to finite people suffering and infinite amount of "time."

Hence, the real horror of Calvary wasn't the crucifizion. The real horror was the Son taking the full wrath of the Fasther for us. "My God, My God, why have you forsaked me?"

The cross is where God's best and man's worst meet. God's love and justice met there also. This makes John 3:16 all the more special. So, what do we need to do? Trust in God's amazing grace & respond to Him on his terms.

So you might wonder what happens to those who didn't have a chance to accdept or reject Christ. Condemnation is what they deserve. It is the consequence of sin. I trust God. He is just and will do what is right. Justice is fair, but grace is more than fair!

Larry said...

Dave, you dont have to tell me the Bible story, I know it---Ive been to Bible college. Its JUSTICE to send people to hell FOREVER for not accepting him? FOREVER? as in "it NEVER EVER ends"??? Thats not justice, that's dictatorial---like enjoyment of watching others suffer.

Larry said...

Hell FOREVER for not accepting God is FAIR? Isnt that the equivalent of you beating someone to death for calling you a name?

David H. Willis said...

If you reject life you get death. It would be fair if we all got punished. But, Grace is more than fair and provides a way out. Choose to reject it and the consequences remain. God is holy.

You can dismiss it and mock it but your moral judgments have no lasting foundation and no value to me when God has spoken.

Larry said...

who's rejecting life? I havent killed myself. You call God holy, I call him selfish (which God even ADMITS in the Bible)---if he exists

watch Zeitgeist yet? I just wanted your view on it

Larry said...

who's rejecting life? I havent killed myself. You call God holy, I call him selfish (which God even ADMITS in the Bible)---if he exists

watch Zeitgeist yet? I just wanted your view on it

Larry said...

didnt mean to post that twice